Building Islands of Sanity in Ecological Collapse and Authoritarianism: A conversation with Carolyn Baker

I was very fortunate to interview Carolyn Baker on my YouTube channel recently - you can watch the video here.

Together, Carolyn and I explored:

• The delusions and spiritual traps we often fall into that bypass reality

• What Christofascism means and the danger of what is unfolding in the USA right now

• How we can feel grief deeply without being paralysed by it

• The vital importance of connection and emotional intelligence in these times

• How to stand in truth even when hope feels naive

• How to be fully present to what is happening and to act with fierce compassion and integrity

Upon advertising the event, I was also contacted by Reilly Dow - listener, artist and scribe - who offered the wonderful gift of this illustration of what we talked about:

The following is a very shortened transcript from the video - cleaned up with some help from ChatGPT, I must admit, in order to help with flow and clarity. This means some of the. nuance may be lost, so please do listen to the conversation on YouTube for the full picture.

Gwyneth: Well, hello. Thank you for joining me. We’ve actually been talking for about 10 minutes already, but here we are! Could you please introduce yourself again and tell us a little about your work and your books?

Carolyn: I'm Carolyn Baker. I live in the U.S., and for the past 15 years—probably longer—I've been researching the collapse of industrial civilization. Not just intellectually, but emotionally and spiritually: how it affects the human heart and soul. You can find my work at carolynbaker.net and on my Substack, which is called Carolyn's Blog. I'll share more as we go.

Gwyneth: Amazing. I highly recommend everyone check out Carolyn’s work. So yes, back to what we were discussing earlier: how are you feeling right now about everything happening in the U.S.? We also touched on Christofascism.

Carolyn: I’m scared. And deeply sad. Those of us aware of collapse are grieving. I’m watching our imperfect democracy crumble, and I think we’ve already fallen off the cliff. We’re now at the bottom looking up, wondering if democracy can ever be restored. Collapse is inherently anti-democratic—people will do anything, democratic or not, to try to hold things together. This invites authoritarianism, and we’re seeing it spreading globally. I do experience joy as well, and I’ll talk more about that later.

Gwyneth: Thank you. Yes, and you also shared your journey into this work. Would you mind recapping that?

Carolyn: Sure. In 2007, I saw a documentary on YouTube called What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire. It looks at collapse through many lenses: climate, economy, governance. It was profound. At the time, I was teaching history, so I showed it to my students. I’d been a therapist in the past and realized I could offer emotional and spiritual support around collapse by becoming a coach. In 2008, I wrote Sacred Demise, and it really took off. Then came Navigating the Coming Chaos. And I just kept going. I’m now in a doctoral program in coaching, which is deeply nourishing and geopolitically informed. This is my life’s work—and I love it.

Gwyneth: I imagine you were quite a pioneer in 2007/2008. Did you have any inspirations or did you figure it out alone?

Carolyn: There were a few early voices, including the filmmakers, and I got a website which helped. As more people wrote and coached around collapse, we supported each other. Now it’s amazing to see this community worldwide. But back then, I felt isolated. When I moved to Boulder, I didn’t talk about collapse. It was a very “everything’s fine” bubble. But now, I’m part of two active collapse groups here.

Gwyneth: Yes, it feels like people are waking up rapidly now. You were going to talk about Christofascism...

Carolyn: Yes. Christofascism is the merging of evangelical Christianity with authoritarianism. It’s rooted in the belief that Jesus will return and take believers to heaven, while everyone else is left to perish. Evangelicals feel it’s their duty to collapse secular systems to prepare for God’s kingdom. It’s authoritarian and dangerous. Meanwhile, wealthy elites—religious or not—are embracing accelerationism: hastening collapse to profit from it. They’re building bunkers. They want collapse to come fast.

Gwyneth: You wrote recently on Substack about this—What If Collapse Is Intentional? That really hit me. The idea that collapse isn’t just happening, but being fueled deliberately, is horrifying.

Carolyn: Exactly. Groups like the New Apostolic Reformation want to control seven spheres of culture—family, religion, education, media, arts, business, and government. Their goal is to dominate culture for Christ even before his return. That’s dominionism—and it’s the core of Christofascism.

Gwyneth: It reminds me of Elon Musk’s Mars colonization or simulation theory—it all feels like a way to escape the present. What about grief? What’s your relationship to it?

Carolyn: I’m steeped in grief. Democracy is unraveling. I couldn’t feel this grief without support. In the West, we see grief as private, but it’s inherently communal. Indigenous cultures know this. We need others to help us hold our grief. And as Joanna Macy and Francis Weller say, grief and joy travel together. Joy isn’t circumstantial like happiness. It’s about meaning and purpose. Even in deep sadness, we can access joy. Blake said, “The deeper the sorrow, the greater the joy.” Mary Oliver said, “We shake with grief, we shake with joy.”

Gwyneth: That’s beautiful. And with Joanna Macy now in hospice, it feels like the end of an era. So, what is our task in these times?

Carolyn: Twofold: connection and emotional intelligence. Connection—with ourselves, each other, and the Earth—is as essential as food and water. No one can do this alone. And emotional intelligence means checking in: What am I feeling? Where in my body? And what is that emotion telling me? Emotional literacy helps us respond with empathy, action, and clarity instead of fear or reactivity. Andrew Harvey says, “Follow the heartbreak.” It leads us to depth.

Gwyneth: I trained with Six Seconds and they say, “Be smarter with feelings.” So true. Nervous system work is also becoming more widely understood now, like titration—not overwhelming ourselves but letting emotion in bit by bit.

Carolyn: Yes! We can regulate without suppressing. That’s what emotional intelligence is. Some people fear that if they start feeling grief or fear, it will consume them. But emotions won’t destroy us—we can learn to work with them. That’s what coaching supports.

Gwyneth: Could you describe what coaching looks like with you?

Carolyn: Some people come because they’re overwhelmed—by climate grief, family conflict over collapse awareness, or fear for their children. Others come near the end of life, wanting to reflect or serve. I don’t “coach people into grief”—they’re already feeling it. I hold space, guide them in regulating, and help them find community support so they can stay present and act meaningfully.

Gwyneth: It’s so different from conventional coaching. We’re not pushing for “goals,” are we?

Carolyn: Goals can help us discover what’s blocking us—grief, fear, anger—and that leads to deeper work. As Fritz Perls said, “All roads lead to where you’re at.”

Gwyneth: I wanted to ask—what does it mean to live fiercely and authentically to you?

Carolyn: In my book Undaunted, I define “fierce” as living with urgency, fire, radical compassion, and integrity. It’s not about anger. Many are looking to WWII resistance stories now—we need to be those people today. Collapse is unearthing old trauma and asking us to become better healers and companions to the Earth.

Gwyneth: And your latest book?

Carolyn: I consider it the best book on collapse that I've ever written It’s also on Audible. Some of the chapter titles include: “Emotions as Allies, Not Enemies,” “The Folly of Fearlessness,” “Backstroking in the Waters of Grief,” “Addiction to Hope,” “Compassion Is Not for Sissies,” “Becoming a Student of Endings,”, “I love you, son, but I love fossil fuels more.” It’s deep and comprehensive.

Gwyneth: I need to read this! I’m going to zoom in here on Addictin to Hope. Some call it “hopium.” What’s your relationship with hope?

Carolyn: Hope isn’t a feeling—it’s an action. Joanna Macy calls it “active hope”: doing the right thing because it’s right, not because of outcome. That’s how I keep going, despite what my generation has done. Collapse gives me purpose, love, and depth I wouldn’t have found in business-as-usual life.

Gwyneth: And how do you define collapse?

Carolyn: It’s the unraveling of systems—financial, ecological, societal. Some collapse is fast, some slow. We’re seeing illness emerge from melting tundra, financial precarity for most people. And also, spiritual and moral collapse: the cruelty, denial, and unmasking of empire.

Gwyneth: Yes, and it leaves people in spiritual crisis. What about the traps people fall into?

Carolyn: Every spirituality has been used to perpetuate denial. From manifesting your desires to end-times theology, these are bypasses. True spirituality should help us face collapse, not avoid it. Andrew Harvey writes about this in The Hope. Use your spiritual path to meet collapse—not flee from it.

Gwyneth: That really resonates. I’ve seen people try to skip the “honoring the pain” stage of the Work That Reconnects and just get to the pleasant parts. But joy isn’t the opposite of pain—it’s often found through it.

Carolyn: Exactly. Joy isn’t always pleasant. It’s meaning, aliveness, love. Even in grief. And yes, guilt can arise—“How can I enjoy an ice cream while Gaza suffers?” But we need to expand our capacity to hold both grief and gratitude. As Francis Weller says, “The work of the mature person is to carry grief in one hand and gratitude in the other.”

Gwyneth: Am I right to say we’re in an emotionally immature society, trained in either/or. Either happy or depressed. Either good or bad. But we have to learn to hold the complexity. And when we’re in fight/flight, we can’t - everything is binary. That’s why nervous system work is vital.

Carolyn: Yes. Emotional intelligence supports that complexity. Collapse isn’t coming - it’s already here. We’re planting seeds now to help people respond wisely when things accelerate.

Gwyneth: Thank you. Here’s a question from the audience: "You mentioned the importance about anger. Can you speak more fully about being angry without having hate in one's own heart?”

Carolyn: Yes. Anger can be energizing. But hate corrodes us. Often beneath anger is grief or fear. Explore what’s under it. Emotional intelligence helps us be curious. You can feel anger, express it constructively, then move through it. Don’t live in it.

Gwyneth: Someone once told me: “Set a timer for eight minutes of hate, then go scream in the woods.”

Carolyn: Yes! The animals will love it.

Gwyneth: Final question: Any books for teens or kids about collapse?

Carolyn: None come to mind immediately.

Gwyneth: There’s someone in the Work That Reconnects network doing beautiful work around parenting in these times. I’ll add a link when I upload the video. In my work in North Wales, we go into schools and talk about carbon literacy—but also help kids name their feelings and normalize them. The hardest thing for them is when adults don’t take their concerns seriously.

Carolyn: Yes. And people can reach me at carolynbaker.net if they’d like support or coaching.

Gwyneth: Thank you so much, Carolyn. I’ll be reading—or listening to—your book soon!

Carolyn: Thank you, Gwyneth. This was a joy.